This piano thing is a little bit of an issue here now. I was going to get to that in a minute, but let’s just jump in so you already brought it up. And we’re talking about looking deeply at what’s in the soil and replacing what needs to be replaced, removing what needs to be removed and then adding what needs to be added. By pivot, we mean-we use the metaphor of the peach tree. Or a change might be something like adding a ministry or doing a sermon series or hiring a different pastor to oversee a different part of the church. My dad likes to use the example of it seems like-to those of us who are not in ministry, it seems like not that big of a deal to move the piano from one side of the stage to the other. So by pivot, we mean deep cultural transformation. Can you tell us about the difference between shift, change, and transform? And what do you do then? So this is the book to answer those questions for those of you who are wondering, “What do I do when I see so much stuff going off the rails? But I don’t just want to bail.” And so that’s what I see this book as being really helpful for for our audience. There’s so much of the book that’s talking to you’re the person in the pew and you see a lot of problems, but you love this community. But how do we get there? What practically do you do?” And that transformation that you talk about in this book you’re not just talking to pastors. A Church Called Tov gave us this vision of what a healthy church would look like. Sheila: And I love that idea of being good agents or Tov agents in your church because that’s really what you’re talking about in this book. But in the power of God, we can become good, and that’s why we want to have a Tov or a good culture. ![]() There is none good, but that’s none on their own. But God through the power of the Spirit and the grace of God can transform us into agents of goodness, to have good character. And so there’s this sense that if you say you’re good it’s like you’ve offended Christian sensibilities. No, not one.” And I believe that is the King James Version. But one of the things we found out right away is that people are nervous about the word good because of Romans 3:10 that says, “There is none good. So that’s the spectrum in the New Testament or in the Bible. God forms a good covenant with people to form a relationship with Him. We studied that word-I should say I studied this word in the Old Testament. Tov is the Hebrew word for good or goodness. This is going to be the hopeful podcast as we close out before Christmas. So much of-especially evangelical culture is right now. And on the last few episodes of the Bare Marriage podcast, we have been talking about how traumatic church can be and how problematic. The Priorities, Practices, and Powers that can Transform Your Church into a Tov Culture. And your new book, Pivot, which I have here as well. And you were on our podcast probably two years ago when that book was first out talking about that. ![]() Sheila: And I see in the background Scot has a two of his most recent books or two of the books that we’re going to be talking about. Scott: Laura says, “I’m just a,”-she says of herself, “I’m just a teacher.” And I say, “I’m a teacher too.” And his daughter, Laura Barringer, who is a teacher and a friend of mine. Scot McKnight, who is a professor of-is it New Testament? I forget. ![]() Sheila: I am so happy to bring back on the podcast a father/daughter duo, who have written another book together. We would love to raise $28,000 by the end of the year, which will help us make a good start at our scholarship program and getting our materials together to do some courses. ![]() law (we’re working on making similar connections in Canada and elsewhere, but right now it’s just in the United States). Will you join us in this? This is tax receiptable in the United States as applicable to U.S. If pastors are taught differently from the outset, then churches won’t be as toxic. We want to create continuing education for pastors and counselors get more of our research into peer reviewed journals and so much more. But we’d like to see change at an institutional level, with more pastors and counselors getting on board so this toxic stuff isn’t taught in the first place. Up until now we’ve been focused on helping individuals change, and we’ve done very, very well at that. Bosko wanted to team with us to do something important: help influence the church to learn about our data and healthy relationships, and then start teaching it. We’re a new initiative under the Bosko Foundation, called Good Fruit Faith. I also introduced our new fundraising capability. You can be part of our work in pivoting the church.
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